History: Version 1: initial release; Version 2: Reformatted to be in spec.
It's a question that will make a lot of Americans think
Damn
You think you're white
you're not
you're black
It's a question that will make a lot of Americans angry
In order for you to be black
for the rest of your life
what would it take to compensate you for that
How much do you want
How much do I want
How much would it take {breath}
We continue our series
America in black and white
Tonight how much is white skin worth
This is a. b. c. News Nightline
Reporting from Washington
Ted Koppel
This business of skin color inevitably comes up again and again {breath}
Often as not white Americans find themselves getting defensive on the
subject {breath}
It is not we insist something we dwell on morning noon and night
{breath} it is not even the way that most of us define ourselves
We're far more conscious of our age our health our size our {breath}
professional standing
{breath} race
is not the obsession with white Americans that it is
with African Americans
which is precisely the point of our program tonight
{breath} because ours is still a predominantly white nation {breath}
Whites have the luxury of being able to take their skin color for granted
African Americans say that they are obliged to deal with their color
every day
{breath} that even if they make nothing of it they are reminded daily in
small and sometimes not so small ways {breath}
that in America blackness is still a handicap {breath}
That is a sure fire way of starting an interracial argument especially if
you attach to it {breath}
the suggestion that African Americans may be entitled to some sort of
compensation {breath}
for the inequity in their lives
{breath} it's an issue I raised while I was up in Philadelphia the other
evening
{breath} if you saw the program last night you saw the story of a black
woman Bridget Ward and her two daughters {breath}
who were driven out by an anonymous racist letter and some equally
anonymous racist graffiti {breath}
After discussing her case
with her white neighbors I brought up
this question
Let us say for the sake of argument that the government were to come
to all of us tomorrow
and say
We are in favor of making an annual cash grant to all African Americans in
this country {breath}
because it's more difficult being black in America than it is being white
in America how many of you would favor
such a grant
How many of you would oppose it
I posed the question in Bridesburg in such a way that I knew it was going
to be rejected {breath}
A little later on I'll be posing the same question to the same group but in
a totally different way
It's an exercise devised
by Andrew Hacker
A political science professor at Queens College in New York {breath}
He's been conducting the same exercise with his freshman government class
{breath}
for twenty years
high-pitched voice
Mister Finley
You're going to be visited tonight
Oh about eight o'clock this evening
by a visitor
very you know
eh successful looking gentleman
well-dressed all the rest
The gentleman explains that he represents the organization that was
responsible for determining race
He says {breath} Mister Finley will you sit down
uh I've got something to tell you {breath}
You see Mister Finley according to our records you were supposed to have
been born black
to some parents who have African origin
now
because our organization has the rules that it has
when we discover we make a mistake
and it's not very often
we have to correct the mistake
so tonight at midnight
Mister Finley [snap]
you are going to turn into the young man
you were supposed to have been
when you wake up in the morning
your parents may be a bit surprised {breath}
and it's not just that you're going to have
you know
shoe polish on your face
you're going to have a different bodily structure
you're going to be the twenty-two year old
you know that you were supposed to have been
you feeling okay Mister Finley
yeah
okay I think you ((are))
Of course none of this was Finley's fault so
the organization will make full compensation
How much would you like Mister Finley
uh well it would be a lot probably
quite a bit
we could offer you a million dollars a year
would you like that
uh that's pretty good for starters
class laughing
Now what are you telling us Mister Finley
Are you telling us the value of your white skin
um
No #I#
#you# just lost that white
cover
coloration go on
uh it would just be kind of awkward for me
to like live out the rest of my life black {breath}
because I've I've grown up like white around like white surroundings I like
#(( ))#
#Hey# aren't all people created equal won't you be treated the same way you
were up until your first twenty-two years
I hope so but
I don't know that for sure
so why would you like the million what would you do with it
what I'd do with it
students laughing
{laugh} uh
I don't know
buy a house somewhere
somewhere
Perhaps in a neighborhood where they'd take somebody who had a million a
year
yeah
even if they were your new color
yes
or you'd have a limousine pick you up
each day because you couldn't count on taxis
{laugh}
in other words
what we're talking about is for those
Americans who have this {cough}
what it's worth
you only know what it's worth
when you lose it
What works as a simple academic exercise at Queens College however soon
develops up in the Bridesburg section of Philadelphia {breath}
into a prickly conversation about affirmative action but it begins
the same way
How much do you want
How much do I want
How much would it take
two hundred and fifty thousand a year for fifty years
How did you calculate that
loud noise
no rhyme or reason for it
basically two hundred and fifty thousand just seems like a nice comfortable
living level
two hundred and fifty grand a year would that be enough for you if I passed
the same information on to you
(( ))
I guess so
all right we made a mistake we
know he's still
got a long lifetime ahead
I would take fifty million
then I (( )) live anywhere I want I wouldn't have to deal with any
any racism
What if you were a #black guy#
#I could enjoy# myself I #could#
#What racism#
#I# could do whatever I want
racism in America
oh okay
you're you're basically paying for your mistake
I think
I mean you'll correct me if if
you think I'm wrong
I think it's probably easier to be a white man in America #than it is to be
black#
#I certainly do and I# think it's easier to be a rich white man
absolutely
oh sure
let's assume
laughing
that we're just talking about
the same amount of money
#right#
#right#
you're black
I'm white
or you're white
I'm black we both make
forty grand a year
would you rather be black or white
rather be white
why
it's easier
really
it's ea- I admit that it's easier to be white
I admit the
blacks got uh
bad hand dealt to them
why is that
they did
you were just telling me about
half an hour ago you don't believe in affirmative action
right
what I'm offering here is affirmative action
no
many people speaking at once
no you're not
no
that's compensation for a major mistake
fact of the matter is that being black in America is a little more
difficult than being white and sometimes #not a little more difficult#
#but it doesn't have to be#
The problem is is you don't correct a wrong with a wrong and if you're
going to be fair you have to be fair I don't think people should be denied
work
because of their race and I don't think they should get it because of their
race they should {breath}
get whatever they get because they're qualified for it and if you did that
you would eliminate
a lot of racism
to me affirmative action is a form of racism
If ((you give)) any one group special privileges special rights
you're just going to have the other group angry at that
yes {breath} yes
Even #if they haven't#
#you will# just anger the group that
hm
The excluded group even more
Part of what we were saying I think is when you start treating anyone
in a in a
particular
special
I don't want to say special in a good sense you know but in a in a in a way
we're {breath}
you're sanctioning them getting more
than somebody #else#
#affirmative action ((was a)) ((helping hand)) ((up ))#
#you're going to create resentments#
yeah
#I'm sorry#
#you going to create#
#(( ))# a helping hand (( ))
they needed it bl-
you hear people say well you got to lift yourself up by your boot straps
well like the guys ((that don't even)) got boots
so they got a helping hand up
with affirmative action
((you mean we've got to))
you wouldn't have any cops wouldn't have any black firemen
you wouldn't have anything without affirmative action
you don't think #so#
#you# wouldn't have any no you wouldn't have any {breath}
This is how they got
their start
Now it's time to make it on your merit and #a lot of them do#
#that's right#
It's a problem that's been racking America's social conscience for years
The undeniable fact that being black in America is more difficult than
being white {breath}
but when we conducted a national poll asking {breath}
do you think blacks and other minorities are discriminated against in
hiring
there was a clear disconnect
only forty-three percent of the whites polled thought the answer was yes
fifty percent thought no {breath}
the split among blacks was
seventy-seven percent yes
only seventeen percent
no {breath}
then we posed another question which we'd like to pose to you also
{breath}
do you think blacks and other minorities should receive preference in
hiring {breath}
to make up for past inequalities
or not {breath}
later in the broadcast we'll tell you how other Americans answered that
question
in black and white
What follows is an old story more than forty years old
as a matter of fact but
it so graphically demonstrates the difference between being black and white
at a certain time and a certain place in America {breath}
that we thought the story worth telling in the context of tonight's
program
{breath} this appears to be a story that turned out well
how well
we'll discuss later on when I talk to Greg Williams who is now {breath}
the dean of the Ohio State University Law School {breath}
back in the early nineteen fifties Greg Williams was a white kid growing up
in Virginia
They let me go to places that uh I know that my black playmates couldn't go
to actually I
{breath} really had an opportunity to see the black swimming pools the
black theaters and
{breath} other places where the black kids that I grew up with went and
they were very different than what I had access to
Greg's father James Buster Williams ran a segregated roadhouse
whites ate in the big dining room up front blacks in the back
James's own skin was dark but Greg's mother told him that his father was
Italian {breath}
and said he should be proud of his Italian heritage
but then Greg's parents broke up
and his father took Greg and his younger brother to live with their
relatives
the three of them headed to Indiana
by bus
it was somewhere in Ohio actually I think somewhere b- between Columbus and
Dayton {breath}
that my dad uh leaned across the aisle and said do you remember Miss Sally
and I remember Miss Sally this is a woman who had drifted in and out of our
lives identified as a maid a domestic not anyone of {breath} of great
importance and he said well
that's my mother
and that's your grandmother
and in Virginia you were white boys
but in Indiana you're going to be colored boys
James Buster Williams wasn't Italian he was black
at that time in Virginia {breath}
it was illegal for him to be married to a white woman so he had passed as
white {breath}
now back in Muncie Indiana with his family
he was black again
and so were his sons
no matter what their skin color was
I lived in a society that has some very rigid lines {breath}
uh that wasn't was not interested how l- uh
{breath} how white you were {breath} only th- only issue of interest was
how black were you and if you were
any part black you were considered black
it used to be known as the one drop rule
one drop of black blood made you black {breath}
it was until quite recently the law in many of our states {breath}
until its law was repealed a little more than ten years ago Louisiana still
held that anyone who was one thirty second part black
was black
the message that we got {breath} from
white teachers uh white officials uh {breath} the white citizens was
{breath}
you are your future is limited {breath}
you cannot do certain things and in fact many things that you think you
want to do you simply cannot do
Appearances can be deceiving so teachers at Greg's schools made sure that
there would be
no confusion {breath}
his position on the color line was spelled out on his records along with a
warning
don't be fooled
all they saw on my school records was {breath}
race
uh a c. for colored and a note on the back says {breath}
uh father is colored mother is white boys appear to be white but are not
{breath}
and so it mattered {breath}
to the school officials it mattered {breath}
to the people who were making decisions in my life about what I could and
could not do {breath}
and they couldn't see the rest of the record all they saw was the box
{breath} marked race
one place that blacks and whites did mix was on the sports field but
friends on the field were not necessarily friends
after the game was over
I cannot recall one time {breath}
during my entire {breath}
elementary
junior high and high school years {breath}
that I was ever invited to the home
of a white classmate
No issue was more volatile than dating blacks and whites did not mix
socially
Greg was once again
stuck on the color line
dating was a very difficult thing because uh (( ))
the uh white students uh and white teachers uh did not want me to date
white girls in fact I was threatened with all {breath} sorts of punishment
uh {breath}
from beatings from the kids that I was in school with to uh {breath}
expulsion from school {breath}
in fact if I continued to talk to white girls
but in spite of all the pressure Greg began dating Sarah Whitney a white
girl
she is now his wife
I think there uh was a lot of punishment for those transgressed those
social rules
and uh {breath} I don't have a lot pleasant memories of high school um
because once the I did
cross those lines
{breath} um I was ostracized and you know lost my friends
questionnaires the census all sorts of forms ask for the race of the
respondent {breath}
but marking either black or white is not always easy {breath}
or accurate
I think race uh
is an artificially created construct that we have in this country {breath}
and really we've we've worked harder at it in this country to divide people
than I think almost any country in the world with the {breath}
a few notable exceptions which I don't think we want to be like
Greg Williams hopes that his story will at least make people question the
concept of racial identification {breath}
and the consequences of marking a box other than white
How much is white skin worth
perhaps the years have changed the answer that Greg Williams will give
today but I'll ask him
when we come back
{breath} Joining us now from our Columbus Ohio affiliate W. S. Y. X. Greg
Williams dean and professor at the Ohio State University College of Law
{breath} Dean Williams you have lived in a manner of speaking in both
worlds let me pose the question to you that we have been {breath}
a- a- addressing throughout this program what is white skin worth in
America do you think
{breath} I think white skin in America is worth a great deal that uh many
white citizens do r- do not realize the advantages they have {breath}
by being simply born white in this country
for uh for example
in terms of uh the way that uh people are uh are viewed when they go into
places uh {breath}
in terms of how they're assessed in terms of their ability or {breath}
expertise often times that uh {breath} simply having white skin {breath}
kind of carries the cache of expertise and ability that does not {breath}
uh go along with black skin
{lipsmack} ((eh i- f-)) I I I know you understand what I'm saying I'm I'm
trying to say this in a fashion that won't offend other people {breath}
I I have a real hard time there's sort of a disconnect
#looking at#
you
and believing that at any time in your adult life you have experienced that
kind of racism
I mean someone would look at you and say this man is an anglo-saxon
{breath} well that's the certainly the thing that uh that bothered me when
I was ten years old and was thrust into the middle of the racially divided
community in Muncie Indiana
{breath} uh I knew that I looked white uh that I'd always been white in
terms of going to white schools and so when I {breath}
discovered that my grandmother was black and my father was black and other
people did as well {breath}
they started treating me differently {breath}
but I knew that I was not any different that I didn't uh know any less or I
didn't have {breath}
any ambitions that were less than what I had when I was a white kid and so
I had to deal at age ten {breath}
with people treating me as I was different and that I couldn't do the
things {breath}
that I thought I could do when I was white
I can't help but feel uh Dean Williams that a lot of people will have
watched your story tonight and say
{breath} interesting sad poignant
but that was then this is now what's the relevance
when I became dean at the Ohio State Law School I had a lot of people who
were praising me in terms of reaching that {breath}
honored position in the profession and I remember one person in particular
a white woman who was very effusive in her praise
{breath} uh
of me said oh you're at the top of the profession then about a couple of
weeks later she discovered that I was black {breath}
and the first question she asked not to me but to someone else was well did
he get the job because he was black
when she saw me as a white man she assumed that I was qualified {breath}
uh when she discovered that I was black she assumed I was unqualified
now you have children
{breath} I do
your wife is white
#Does this does# does this translate now down to the next generation in any
way
#My wife is white#
My children have grown up in relatively isolated insulated uh university
communities
{breath} uh we did adopt two children from Honduras in Central America a
couple of years ago {breath}
uh who do have dark skin and one of the things that I simply cannot protect
them from {breath}
is the racial epithets that they experience as they {breath}
uh go to school and ride bikes in their neighborhood {breath}
and uh just kind of try to be little boys
so to a certain extent in nineteen ninety-six as in nineteen fifty-six
white skin is still worth more
White skin is still worth more in nineteen ninety-six {breath}
{breath} Dean Williams thanks very much indeed
{breath} When we come back you remember that question I asked you about
preference in hiring
We'll give you the national answers when we come back
Earlier in the program we posed the question on preference in hiring for
minorities {breath}
should blacks and other minorities receive preference in hiring {breath}
to make up for past inequalities or not
Among whites answering the question the disparity was huge {breath}
Only eleven percent answered yes eighty-three percent said
no
{breath} and indeed that does seem to reflect a lingering resentment toward
affirmative action
{breath} in the white community
{breath} What is a little more surprising about our poll result comes from
the black community {breath}
Preference in hiring according to race {breath}
Thirty-seven percent of blacks polled answered yes {breath}
but a significant majority of fifty-six percent said no
and even more interesting is the trend among African Americans
five years ago responding to that same question {breath}
Blacks favored racial preferences to make up for past inequalities
{breath}
by a margin of two to one
Tomorrow night
the story of a traffic accident in Buffalo New York and the charges of
racism {breath}
that flowed out of it
That's why I refer to those transportation issues as racist sanitized
guiltless racism
{breath} the kind of of of racism that people can engage in in the
quietness {breath}
of their suburban homes
crowded room
I think it's to be honest with you utterly ridiculous that racism is even
brought into a situation such as this
How can the unintentional death of a young black woman jay walking across a
seven lane highway {breath}
possibly be the consequence of racism
{breath} that story tomorrow night
{breath} and that's our report for tonight
I'm Ted Koppel in Washington for all of us here at A. B. C. News
good night