History: Version 1: initial release; Version 2: Reformatted to be in spec.
It's a question that will make a lot of Americans think Damn You think you're white you're not you're black It's a question that will make a lot of Americans angry In order for you to be black for the rest of your life what would it take to compensate you for that How much do you want How much do I want How much would it take {breath} We continue our series America in black and white Tonight how much is white skin worth This is a. b. c. News Nightline Reporting from Washington Ted Koppel
This business of skin color inevitably comes up again and again {breath} Often as not white Americans find themselves getting defensive on the subject {breath} It is not we insist something we dwell on morning noon and night {breath} it is not even the way that most of us define ourselves We're far more conscious of our age our health our size our {breath} professional standing {breath} race is not the obsession with white Americans that it is with African Americans which is precisely the point of our program tonight {breath} because ours is still a predominantly white nation {breath} Whites have the luxury of being able to take their skin color for granted African Americans say that they are obliged to deal with their color every day {breath} that even if they make nothing of it they are reminded daily in small and sometimes not so small ways {breath} that in America blackness is still a handicap {breath} That is a sure fire way of starting an interracial argument especially if you attach to it {breath} the suggestion that African Americans may be entitled to some sort of compensation {breath} for the inequity in their lives {breath} it's an issue I raised while I was up in Philadelphia the other evening {breath} if you saw the program last night you saw the story of a black woman Bridget Ward and her two daughters {breath} who were driven out by an anonymous racist letter and some equally anonymous racist graffiti {breath} After discussing her case with her white neighbors I brought up this question Let us say for the sake of argument that the government were to come to all of us tomorrow and say We are in favor of making an annual cash grant to all African Americans in this country {breath} because it's more difficult being black in America than it is being white in America how many of you would favor such a grant How many of you would oppose it I posed the question in Bridesburg in such a way that I knew it was going to be rejected {breath} A little later on I'll be posing the same question to the same group but in a totally different way It's an exercise devised by Andrew Hacker A political science professor at Queens College in New York {breath} He's been conducting the same exercise with his freshman government class {breath} for twenty years high-pitched voice Mister Finley You're going to be visited tonight Oh about eight o'clock this evening by a visitor very you know eh successful looking gentleman well-dressed all the rest The gentleman explains that he represents the organization that was responsible for determining race He says {breath} Mister Finley will you sit down uh I've got something to tell you {breath} You see Mister Finley according to our records you were supposed to have been born black to some parents who have African origin now because our organization has the rules that it has when we discover we make a mistake and it's not very often we have to correct the mistake so tonight at midnight Mister Finley [snap] you are going to turn into the young man you were supposed to have been when you wake up in the morning your parents may be a bit surprised {breath} and it's not just that you're going to have you know shoe polish on your face you're going to have a different bodily structure you're going to be the twenty-two year old you know that you were supposed to have been you feeling okay Mister Finley yeah okay I think you ((are)) Of course none of this was Finley's fault so the organization will make full compensation How much would you like Mister Finley uh well it would be a lot probably quite a bit we could offer you a million dollars a year would you like that uh that's pretty good for starters class laughing Now what are you telling us Mister Finley Are you telling us the value of your white skin um No #I# #you# just lost that white cover coloration go on uh it would just be kind of awkward for me to like live out the rest of my life black {breath} because I've I've grown up like white around like white surroundings I like #(( ))# #Hey# aren't all people created equal won't you be treated the same way you were up until your first twenty-two years I hope so but I don't know that for sure so why would you like the million what would you do with it what I'd do with it students laughing {laugh} uh I don't know buy a house somewhere somewhere Perhaps in a neighborhood where they'd take somebody who had a million a year yeah even if they were your new color yes or you'd have a limousine pick you up each day because you couldn't count on taxis {laugh} in other words what we're talking about is for those Americans who have this {cough} what it's worth you only know what it's worth when you lose it
What works as a simple academic exercise at Queens College however soon develops up in the Bridesburg section of Philadelphia {breath} into a prickly conversation about affirmative action but it begins the same way How much do you want How much do I want How much would it take two hundred and fifty thousand a year for fifty years How did you calculate that loud noise no rhyme or reason for it basically two hundred and fifty thousand just seems like a nice comfortable living level two hundred and fifty grand a year would that be enough for you if I passed the same information on to you (( )) I guess so all right we made a mistake we know he's still got a long lifetime ahead I would take fifty million then I (( )) live anywhere I want I wouldn't have to deal with any any racism What if you were a #black guy# #I could enjoy# myself I #could# #What racism# #I# could do whatever I want racism in America oh okay you're you're basically paying for your mistake I think I mean you'll correct me if if you think I'm wrong I think it's probably easier to be a white man in America #than it is to be black# #I certainly do and I# think it's easier to be a rich white man absolutely oh sure let's assume laughing that we're just talking about the same amount of money #right# #right# you're black I'm white or you're white I'm black we both make forty grand a year would you rather be black or white rather be white why it's easier really it's ea- I admit that it's easier to be white I admit the blacks got uh bad hand dealt to them why is that they did you were just telling me about half an hour ago you don't believe in affirmative action right what I'm offering here is affirmative action no many people speaking at once no you're not no that's compensation for a major mistake fact of the matter is that being black in America is a little more difficult than being white and sometimes #not a little more difficult# #but it doesn't have to be# The problem is is you don't correct a wrong with a wrong and if you're going to be fair you have to be fair I don't think people should be denied work because of their race and I don't think they should get it because of their race they should {breath} get whatever they get because they're qualified for it and if you did that you would eliminate a lot of racism to me affirmative action is a form of racism If ((you give)) any one group special privileges special rights you're just going to have the other group angry at that yes {breath} yes Even #if they haven't# #you will# just anger the group that hm The excluded group even more Part of what we were saying I think is when you start treating anyone in a in a particular special I don't want to say special in a good sense you know but in a in a in a way we're {breath} you're sanctioning them getting more than somebody #else# #affirmative action ((was a)) ((helping hand)) ((up ))# #you're going to create resentments# yeah #I'm sorry# #you going to create# #(( ))# a helping hand (( )) they needed it bl- you hear people say well you got to lift yourself up by your boot straps well like the guys ((that don't even)) got boots so they got a helping hand up with affirmative action ((you mean we've got to)) you wouldn't have any cops wouldn't have any black firemen you wouldn't have anything without affirmative action you don't think #so# #you# wouldn't have any no you wouldn't have any {breath} This is how they got their start Now it's time to make it on your merit and #a lot of them do# #that's right# It's a problem that's been racking America's social conscience for years The undeniable fact that being black in America is more difficult than being white {breath} but when we conducted a national poll asking {breath} do you think blacks and other minorities are discriminated against in hiring there was a clear disconnect only forty-three percent of the whites polled thought the answer was yes fifty percent thought no {breath} the split among blacks was seventy-seven percent yes only seventeen percent no {breath} then we posed another question which we'd like to pose to you also {breath} do you think blacks and other minorities should receive preference in hiring {breath} to make up for past inequalities or not {breath} later in the broadcast we'll tell you how other Americans answered that question in black and white
What follows is an old story more than forty years old as a matter of fact but it so graphically demonstrates the difference between being black and white at a certain time and a certain place in America {breath} that we thought the story worth telling in the context of tonight's program {breath} this appears to be a story that turned out well how well we'll discuss later on when I talk to Greg Williams who is now {breath} the dean of the Ohio State University Law School {breath} back in the early nineteen fifties Greg Williams was a white kid growing up in Virginia They let me go to places that uh I know that my black playmates couldn't go to actually I {breath} really had an opportunity to see the black swimming pools the black theaters and {breath} other places where the black kids that I grew up with went and they were very different than what I had access to Greg's father James Buster Williams ran a segregated roadhouse whites ate in the big dining room up front blacks in the back James's own skin was dark but Greg's mother told him that his father was Italian {breath} and said he should be proud of his Italian heritage but then Greg's parents broke up and his father took Greg and his younger brother to live with their relatives the three of them headed to Indiana by bus it was somewhere in Ohio actually I think somewhere b- between Columbus and Dayton {breath} that my dad uh leaned across the aisle and said do you remember Miss Sally and I remember Miss Sally this is a woman who had drifted in and out of our lives identified as a maid a domestic not anyone of {breath} of great importance and he said well that's my mother and that's your grandmother and in Virginia you were white boys but in Indiana you're going to be colored boys James Buster Williams wasn't Italian he was black at that time in Virginia {breath} it was illegal for him to be married to a white woman so he had passed as white {breath} now back in Muncie Indiana with his family he was black again and so were his sons no matter what their skin color was I lived in a society that has some very rigid lines {breath} uh that wasn't was not interested how l- uh {breath} how white you were {breath} only th- only issue of interest was how black were you and if you were any part black you were considered black it used to be known as the one drop rule one drop of black blood made you black {breath} it was until quite recently the law in many of our states {breath} until its law was repealed a little more than ten years ago Louisiana still held that anyone who was one thirty second part black was black the message that we got {breath} from white teachers uh white officials uh {breath} the white citizens was {breath} you are your future is limited {breath} you cannot do certain things and in fact many things that you think you want to do you simply cannot do Appearances can be deceiving so teachers at Greg's schools made sure that there would be no confusion {breath} his position on the color line was spelled out on his records along with a warning don't be fooled all they saw on my school records was {breath} race uh a c. for colored and a note on the back says {breath} uh father is colored mother is white boys appear to be white but are not {breath} and so it mattered {breath} to the school officials it mattered {breath} to the people who were making decisions in my life about what I could and could not do {breath} and they couldn't see the rest of the record all they saw was the box {breath} marked race one place that blacks and whites did mix was on the sports field but friends on the field were not necessarily friends after the game was over I cannot recall one time {breath} during my entire {breath} elementary junior high and high school years {breath} that I was ever invited to the home of a white classmate No issue was more volatile than dating blacks and whites did not mix socially Greg was once again stuck on the color line dating was a very difficult thing because uh (( )) the uh white students uh and white teachers uh did not want me to date white girls in fact I was threatened with all {breath} sorts of punishment uh {breath} from beatings from the kids that I was in school with to uh {breath} expulsion from school {breath} in fact if I continued to talk to white girls but in spite of all the pressure Greg began dating Sarah Whitney a white girl she is now his wife I think there uh was a lot of punishment for those transgressed those social rules and uh {breath} I don't have a lot pleasant memories of high school um because once the I did cross those lines {breath} um I was ostracized and you know lost my friends questionnaires the census all sorts of forms ask for the race of the respondent {breath} but marking either black or white is not always easy {breath} or accurate I think race uh is an artificially created construct that we have in this country {breath} and really we've we've worked harder at it in this country to divide people than I think almost any country in the world with the {breath} a few notable exceptions which I don't think we want to be like Greg Williams hopes that his story will at least make people question the concept of racial identification {breath} and the consequences of marking a box other than white How much is white skin worth perhaps the years have changed the answer that Greg Williams will give today but I'll ask him when we come back
{breath} Joining us now from our Columbus Ohio affiliate W. S. Y. X. Greg Williams dean and professor at the Ohio State University College of Law {breath} Dean Williams you have lived in a manner of speaking in both worlds let me pose the question to you that we have been {breath} a- a- addressing throughout this program what is white skin worth in America do you think {breath} I think white skin in America is worth a great deal that uh many white citizens do r- do not realize the advantages they have {breath} by being simply born white in this country for uh for example in terms of uh the way that uh people are uh are viewed when they go into places uh {breath} in terms of how they're assessed in terms of their ability or {breath} expertise often times that uh {breath} simply having white skin {breath} kind of carries the cache of expertise and ability that does not {breath} uh go along with black skin {lipsmack} ((eh i- f-)) I I I know you understand what I'm saying I'm I'm trying to say this in a fashion that won't offend other people {breath} I I have a real hard time there's sort of a disconnect #looking at# you and believing that at any time in your adult life you have experienced that kind of racism I mean someone would look at you and say this man is an anglo-saxon {breath} well that's the certainly the thing that uh that bothered me when I was ten years old and was thrust into the middle of the racially divided community in Muncie Indiana {breath} uh I knew that I looked white uh that I'd always been white in terms of going to white schools and so when I {breath} discovered that my grandmother was black and my father was black and other people did as well {breath} they started treating me differently {breath} but I knew that I was not any different that I didn't uh know any less or I didn't have {breath} any ambitions that were less than what I had when I was a white kid and so I had to deal at age ten {breath} with people treating me as I was different and that I couldn't do the things {breath} that I thought I could do when I was white I can't help but feel uh Dean Williams that a lot of people will have watched your story tonight and say {breath} interesting sad poignant but that was then this is now what's the relevance when I became dean at the Ohio State Law School I had a lot of people who were praising me in terms of reaching that {breath} honored position in the profession and I remember one person in particular a white woman who was very effusive in her praise {breath} uh of me said oh you're at the top of the profession then about a couple of weeks later she discovered that I was black {breath} and the first question she asked not to me but to someone else was well did he get the job because he was black when she saw me as a white man she assumed that I was qualified {breath} uh when she discovered that I was black she assumed I was unqualified now you have children {breath} I do your wife is white #Does this does# does this translate now down to the next generation in any way #My wife is white# My children have grown up in relatively isolated insulated uh university communities {breath} uh we did adopt two children from Honduras in Central America a couple of years ago {breath} uh who do have dark skin and one of the things that I simply cannot protect them from {breath} is the racial epithets that they experience as they {breath} uh go to school and ride bikes in their neighborhood {breath} and uh just kind of try to be little boys so to a certain extent in nineteen ninety-six as in nineteen fifty-six white skin is still worth more White skin is still worth more in nineteen ninety-six {breath} {breath} Dean Williams thanks very much indeed {breath} When we come back you remember that question I asked you about preference in hiring We'll give you the national answers when we come back
Earlier in the program we posed the question on preference in hiring for minorities {breath} should blacks and other minorities receive preference in hiring {breath} to make up for past inequalities or not Among whites answering the question the disparity was huge {breath} Only eleven percent answered yes eighty-three percent said no {breath} and indeed that does seem to reflect a lingering resentment toward affirmative action {breath} in the white community {breath} What is a little more surprising about our poll result comes from the black community {breath} Preference in hiring according to race {breath} Thirty-seven percent of blacks polled answered yes {breath} but a significant majority of fifty-six percent said no and even more interesting is the trend among African Americans five years ago responding to that same question {breath} Blacks favored racial preferences to make up for past inequalities {breath} by a margin of two to one
Tomorrow night the story of a traffic accident in Buffalo New York and the charges of racism {breath} that flowed out of it That's why I refer to those transportation issues as racist sanitized guiltless racism {breath} the kind of of of racism that people can engage in in the quietness {breath} of their suburban homes crowded room I think it's to be honest with you utterly ridiculous that racism is even brought into a situation such as this How can the unintentional death of a young black woman jay walking across a seven lane highway {breath} possibly be the consequence of racism {breath} that story tomorrow night {breath} and that's our report for tonight I'm Ted Koppel in Washington for all of us here at A. B. C. News good night